Offspring´s - Page 4

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is, why in Czech work breed comission. It is, why we try to keep 7 base bloodlines and much males in every class. We know sotuation in other states. in much country is easy to take two "wolfsih type of wolfdogs " and make pups. But is not easy to keep level of Wright down. We need not new wolves in breed, we need to help to lines what are not much in the World. It is work for clubs, not to produce some pups in wolf type, but very related.....
I know, not in all casses we can make "not related pairs", but we try it.
For example: last my two litters was Wright 1,51 and 3,9.My two next litters will have 4,19 and 4.83. Is it possible, but you must choose good male (good for blood), not only champions with wolf face.

Exellent work and breedplan(s) Hanka

I really think we nead some international breeding roules,
(recommendations) about COI, total Offspring´s and repeated litters...

I do think that the most breeders do try to keep the COI low,
but it is a question how long this will be possible...
if some breeders make litters whit a COI on 20-50% on 5 generations !!!
And take over 50 Offspring´s ???

Not just the COI on 5 generation is important, but the total pedigee to...

I think we and the clubs better react NOW, not in 4-8 years, then it might be to late !!!

Very best regards / Mikael

wolfin · 18-12-2008, 18:33

Sorry Mikael, but for me, You not very see dogs pedigree, and not know all thime about who speak.
Maybe better mass studie all litters and breed plans?

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

Sorry Mikael, but for me, You not very see dogs pedigree, and not know all thime about who speak.
Maybe better mass studie all litters and breed plans?

Maby you can tell me what is wrong by try to keep the COI low,
and try to get in new blood in your contry ???

Best regards / Mikael

wolfin · 18-12-2008, 18:48

All be in control

sory but info about litter I not cann say- this cann say only breeders this litters, whot for he make this or this. Others we have people who be not happy for us speak.

Nebulosa · 18-12-2008, 18:57

I hope next time Czech republic will try to rescue the line of S and R Windsweept Hillok litters, jola z Krotovskeho Dvora and Falco zo Sennej, with the more "czech lines" these dogs will be almost outcrossing... but.. none have interess they have no show titles.

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I hope next time Czech republic will try to rescue the line of S and R Windsweept Hillok litters, jola z Krotovskeho Dvora and Falco zo Sennej, with the more "czech lines" these dogs will be almost outcrossing... but.. none have interess they have no show titles.

I have BIG interest...

No show results needed, only good HD and Bonitation...

Best regards / Mikael

Nebulosa · 18-12-2008, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

I have BIG interest...

No show results neaded only good HD and Bonitation...

Best regards / Mikael

I'm almost making a campaign for someone use these dogs, now that's public I hope someone will use it, without fear of the unknow.

wolfin · 18-12-2008, 19:11

For dogs blood/linie rescue need only dogs, and hes HD, and inbreed. others not very important.

Hanka · 18-12-2008, 19:18

Wow, there was

Nebulosa · 18-12-2008, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

For dogs blood/linie rescue need only dogs, and hes HD, and inbreed. others not very important.

It's not important for a concient breeder wich plan mates seing the bloodline for all breed, without care too much if maybe this litter will not be such great or beauty, but most part isn't like that and have eyes more for the well know dogs, maybe that's why lines like this, or like almost happen with Iran Zemplinska Oblast line, are getting lost.

loco · 18-12-2008, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I hope next time Czech republic will try to rescue the line of S and R Windsweept Hillok litters, jola z Krotovskeho Dvora and Falco zo Sennej, with the more "czech lines" these dogs will be almost outcrossing... but.. none have interess they have no show titles.

But this breeder has 3 dogs out this litters, do you not think he has a reason why he did not breed on with this dogs out of those litters?
Or is just only the line that must be kept alive, and really the rest is not inportend?
Groette Martine.

fenris · 18-12-2008, 19:56

Wrote Mikael: "I have BIG interest...

No show results needed, only good HD and Bonitation...

Best regards / Mikael"

Thats a sound scandinavian attitude!. I support youre point of view. Nothing is more a detriment to a breed than pure show-breeding.

Fenris.

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

I hope next time Czech republic will try to rescue the line of S and R Windsweept Hillok litters, jola z Krotovskeho Dvora and Falco zo Sennej, with the more "czech lines" these dogs will be almost outcrossing... but.. none have interess they have no show titles.

Where can I find out more about this line ???

Can somebody send me some info ???

Regards / Mikael

fenris · 18-12-2008, 20:03

To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm

Hanka · 18-12-2008, 20:11

Yes, here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/o218.html

But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing

. More interest is Atos z Belesova.

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm

Thanks, very very up to date

Good that somebody do react to this inbreeding problems !!!

Best regards / Mikael

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/o218.html

But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing

. More interest is Atos z Belesova.

Do the clubs have any sperm bank on this rare lines, or on other old good dogs ???

How long can one keep frousen sperms ???

How would it work to make a small spermbank today on this rare dogs ???

Is it possible ???

Regards / Mikael

fenris · 18-12-2008, 20:49

Inbreeding isnt necessarily the problem, but lack of proper offspring selection. Breeding dogs for "beauty-contests" will lead to genetic problem despite the inbreeding practice done. Breeding for good working dogs require a multitude of qualities. Add to that "vitality", "multiple health-factors", mental characteristics &.c.... Breeding is far more sofisticated than adding up pedigrees and inbreeding coefficients. I know some breeders of domestic animals can be very successful practicing inbreeding. Mother-nature can handle heavy inbreeding in wolf populations thanks to severe natural selection. A problem with CWD is an over-estimation of some show-dogs as "studs" and an under-estimation of some good working-line dogs. How are the offspring tested for satisfactory breed results? The bonitations and working tests should be required for studs and brood bitches of this workingdog breed. What if : workingdog tests must be done BEFORE entering the show-ring??

Mikael · 18-12-2008, 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Thats a sound scandinavian attitude!. I support youre point of view. Nothing is more a detriment to a breed than pure show-breeding.

Fenris.

Thanks...
I do not know if it is the Scandinavian way ???
But this is my way...

Quote:

Old post. Originally Posted by Mikael

Firt of all this is not a topic about my kennel

But if I have good dogs to breed in the future, I will breed...

* As unrelated dogs as possible.
* On good health, as far as I know and can test.
* On as good HD results as possible, but only A and B.
* On as good Bonitation results as possible.
* On good working results.

Hronec Taabernakkelin have a Wright´s Coefficient of inbreeding on 6,1% on 5 generation, therefore I´m not the one whit a big problem here...

But thanks for ansking and careing about me

regards / Mikael

Best regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 18-12-2008, 21:38

Dear Mikael,

sorry to say, but you seem a bit overexcited about the whole thing.
A so called rare line doesn't mean that it's a "good" line.
And if you look at the pedigree of Falco zo Sennej you see that's not a rare line at all. Sorry Sona and love to Australia....
His father is Cezar od Pavlisina, if this dog's name rings a bell and his mother Klea Ruskov dvor.
Her sister Krasna has many, many descendands. Look at the number of her son's Arek offspring and grandchildren for instance.
For Jola more or less the same.
Her mother is Kada, daughter of Orlik and Hesy.
Look at the number of their descendands.
The only so called rare line nowadays would be Jola's father Synek.
Do you know anything about the health status of the mentioned dogs?
Ok, Falco got blind at the age of 5 or 6 years and his niece Argenta Zelena Voda around the same age.
She´s suffering of a glaucoma which is probably hereditary.
I'm not patronizing you, but before making breeding plans, praising dogs you don't know and blaming certain lines you don't know either, I would strongly recommend coming to Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany and Poland seeing some older dogs and talking to experienced wolfdog people.
The above mentioned example is only one out of many.
Wolfdog.org and the collected data are brilliant, but only one point out of many.
Have a look at the dates of the different summercamps and come over.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying problems with high inbreeding or even health problems in the breed but your point of view is far too simple.

Regards,
Michael

18-12-2008, 18:33	#62
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	Sorry Mikael, but for me, You not very see dogs pedigree, and not know all thime about who speak. Maybe better mass studie all litters and breed plans? __________________

18-12-2008, 18:48	#64
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	All be in control sory but info about litter I not cann say- this cann say only breeders this litters, whot for he make this or this. Others we have people who be not happy for us speak. __________________

18-12-2008, 18:57	#65
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	I hope next time Czech republic will try to rescue the line of S and R Windsweept Hillok litters, jola z Krotovskeho Dvora and Falco zo Sennej, with the more "czech lines" these dogs will be almost outcrossing... but.. none have interess they have no show titles. __________________

18-12-2008, 19:11	#68
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	For dogs blood/linie rescue need only dogs, and hes HD, and inbreed. others not very important. __________________

18-12-2008, 21:38	#80
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Dear Mikael, sorry to say, but you seem a bit overexcited about the whole thing. A so called rare line doesn't mean that it's a "good" line. And if you look at the pedigree of Falco zo Sennej you see that's not a rare line at all. Sorry Sona and love to Australia.... His father is Cezar od Pavlisina, if this dog's name rings a bell and his mother Klea Ruskov dvor. Her sister Krasna has many, many descendands. Look at the number of her son's Arek offspring and grandchildren for instance. For Jola more or less the same. Her mother is Kada, daughter of Orlik and Hesy. Look at the number of their descendands. The only so called rare line nowadays would be Jola's father Synek. Do you know anything about the health status of the mentioned dogs? Ok, Falco got blind at the age of 5 or 6 years and his niece Argenta Zelena Voda around the same age. She´s suffering of a glaucoma which is probably hereditary. I'm not patronizing you, but before making breeding plans, praising dogs you don't know and blaming certain lines you don't know either, I would strongly recommend coming to Slovakia, Czech Republic, Germany and Poland seeing some older dogs and talking to experienced wolfdog people. The above mentioned example is only one out of many. Wolfdog.org and the collected data are brilliant, but only one point out of many. Have a look at the dates of the different summercamps and come over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying problems with high inbreeding or even health problems in the breed but your point of view is far too simple. Regards, Michael Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 18-12-2008 at 21:52.

18-12-2008, 19:18	#69
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Wow, there was

18-12-2008, 19:56	#72
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	Wrote Mikael: "I have BIG interest... No show results needed, only good HD and Bonitation... Best regards / Mikael" Thats a sound scandinavian attitude!. I support youre point of view. Nothing is more a detriment to a breed than pure show-breeding. Fenris.

18-12-2008, 20:03	#74
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	To follow up my prior comment; please have a look at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7779686.stm

18-12-2008, 20:11	#75
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Yes, here: http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/o218.html But blood of Rep is not so "interest"= good for rescuing . More interest is Atos z Belesova.

18-12-2008, 20:49	#78
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	Inbreeding isnt necessarily the problem, but lack of proper offspring selection. Breeding dogs for "beauty-contests" will lead to genetic problem despite the inbreeding practice done. Breeding for good working dogs require a multitude of qualities. Add to that "vitality", "multiple health-factors", mental characteristics &.c.... Breeding is far more sofisticated than adding up pedigrees and inbreeding coefficients. I know some breeders of domestic animals can be very successful practicing inbreeding. Mother-nature can handle heavy inbreeding in wolf populations thanks to severe natural selection. A problem with CWD is an over-estimation of some show-dogs as "studs" and an under-estimation of some good working-line dogs. How are the offspring tested for satisfactory breed results? The bonitations and working tests should be required for studs and brood bitches of this workingdog breed. What if : workingdog tests must be done BEFORE entering the show-ring??