CzW situation in Italy

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello,when I have seen your fotos, My idea was: "it is some Mutara" . So, Pavel and I have the same idea .
The people from czech club know: it is not safe to buy some puppy from Italy. Sad....We never know, what we can have. Are parents of puppy in pedigree the same like real parents? Have they really X-ray result 0/0???
I heart from some italian breeders. "Don´t belive, what you can see in italian pedigrees. It is false, very often, italian breeding is only golden cover. But don´t know, what is under it".....
So, for us are wolfdogs from Italy "blind way".

I kindly ask you NOT to confuse the enormous quantity of Good and Correct CS Wolfdogs and Wolfdog Owners with some examples of something we do not exactly know about but by "hearing" and "suppsitions".
I do not have as much experience as you Hanka but I suppose you and others who have know very well that to put all in the same boat (right and wrong, honest and not honest) is a very stupid thing to do.
I therefore ask all not to make confusion.
If you tell me that before buying a dog you want to see clearly in the pedigree it's fine.
I don't think that in Italy we have worst conditions than in Czech and Slovak republics.
Additionally I must inform you that in Italy it has now become necessary to REGISTER the DNA of all new champions and all breeding champions so that the request to make cross controlls over DNA will become fast and easy.
Do you have that in your countries?
Expecially this sentence hurts me most:

So, for us are wolfdogs from Italy "blind way"

Do not forget that most of the "trouble" didn't start in Italy ....

Massimo

[massimo]

Allow me to add to the Italian person who is sending you all this precious information that instead of sending around the forums catastrophic and histerious messages maybe he could first of all get informed about all the things he is not aware of, ask eventually people who know more than him and then maybe drive your own conclusions.

Well, I'm actually unsure about one of my statements

Could you also suggest us (or better yet, the members of the italian club - I'm not one of them) what to do in order to get some clarification on this issue, or to promote official investigations?

You are not even a member of the Italian Club....

I've never seen CsW looking like that, but I've seen "mixes" looking like that.

I'm very interested to know where you have seen mixes before.

Again, I'm not really an expert, I've never seen my dog with my own eyes and it's hard to judge by those two pics.

Again, maybe you are right on the whole matter, but wouldn't it be better to be sure about things before saying certain things?
massimo

[Wolfsirius]

Massimo, you are correct, and you were faster than me
i wanted to say as well, that if there is something bothering somebody, why just dont ask from dogs breeder or owner directly? (even the beginner of topic ask what people thinks about the dog)
We live far away in Finland,, and sometimes we heard amazing rumours about our breed and breeders as well, but we are not talking around about it, if we are interested, we ask, directly from person who is in question. It is very simple.

And about that dog in photo; i had seen worst csv;s and csv;s looking more mixed, than this one, and for me, still biggest worry with the breed is that there is overproduction of puppies, there is puppies sold to "not suitable enviroments/owners"

and for example in FINLAND, we had have csv;s since 1999, and only one breeder, me, 3 CsV litters only. Single people imported dogs from different countries (of course) and now you can buy a "TAMASKAN DOGS", or "wolfdogs" of course from Finland, but example from England too, where is Csv as a father or grandfather etc. And that dog is from france. (not from me)

In Finland example "huskypeople" make different kind of wolfdog mixes and sell it with "good price" to many unworthy places/people", and there comes more mixbreed puppies, and more and more.. Seems that Csv is very popular to use in "wolfdog" mixes, and for me, pure breed is not for that.
I am very worried about this, in Finland. Very very worried.

-Suski

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Hanka

The people from czech club know: it is not safe to buy some puppy from Italy.

Please, don't speech in general...there is only a one big breeder (ever the same) involved in this story and there are still many good csw from Italy and many good breeders.

And don't forget that the whole "Mutara gate" started in Czech republic if not remember badly...

-----

It's becoming obvious that there is an error in the database : "Alaska" very probably is not "Alaska".

[fizban]

Hi Massimo,

Yeah you are right, I'm not a member of the club, and I've said it already. Your point is?

I'm not sending around hysterical (if this is what you meant) nor catastrophical messages around the forum. If you read my posts carefully you'll notice I'm JUST asking third party opinions and informations, just to avoid "italian oriented flames" to influence *my own point of view* and that's all. If it wasn't clear, I hope it is now.

I've seen mixes in photo. And I've seen a weird looking dog in photo too. Again, your point is?

Originally Posted by massimo

Again, maybe you are right on the whole matter, but wouldn't it be better to be sure about things before saying certain things?
massimo

I'm actually not stating anything, nor accusing anyone in my posts, my only statement on the issue is that it simply sucks that international clubs consider Italy a Banana Republic.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Please, don't speech in general...there is only a one big breeder (ever the same) involved in this story and there are still many good csw from Italy and many good breeders.

And don't forget that the whole "Mutara gate" started in Czech republic if not remember badly...

-----

It's becoming obvious that there is an error in the database : "Alaska" very probably is not "Alaska".

Hi,
in this case is Hanka right. I know, that in Italy is most seriously breeders and owners, but its sorry, that the wrong name of italian breed making the biggest "breeders" (maybe better say "producers"). I know as well, that seriously breeder or owner in Czech republic buy never a CsW in Italy, because italian breed have very very bad name. You and all people, who in Italy realy loves our breed must doing something with it. We are too far away ...
Other story is, that italian club invite for bonitation only judges from Czech republic, which are in deep conflict with club here and which never more judging in Czech republic (Jedlicka, Simackova). This people are members of "Mutara group" and its a reason, why fighting with our club here. Fact, that just many times valuating CsW by bonitation in Italy, make the worst name of italian club and breed here as well.
From Italy yet buy a CsW puppies only people, which are more or less something together with "Mutara" case and its says all, I think.
You are right, that Mutara starting in Czech republic. It was one from the most false steps in our club. But you know as well, that it was illegaly action only some people and without agree of club. Immediatelly, when was Mutaras published, was this people eliminate from club comitee and many are not more members of our club (e.g. Jedlicka, Malasek). Czech club will try to eliminate Mutaras much as possible. Today just is forbiden in Czech republic registration any puppies of Mutara. This is reason, why the "Mutara fanatics" go to othet countries and try to breeding there. Its make again worst name of italian breed. Now must italian breeders something doing to eliminate this "infection".

Pavel

PS : Andre, we speaking about same person, only Jedlicka we write with the hooks over "c" and its not shows in other chracter code pages, than czech.

[Pavel]

And one notice about bad name of italian breed :
On bonitation at 31.3.2007 was delegate first Sona Bognarova. But one member of italian club visited Sona and shows her conditions of bonitation. Everything were OK, only by character test was dog always on leash together with owner. When Sona says, that she will see in any case dog how react without owner (not necessary with figurant), then italian club oficially canceled delegation for Sona and invite Jedlicka and Simackova. Its next reason, why czech and slovaks see italian breed bad. You put to dogs same bonitation code system, but your bonitation according not to bonitation in countries of origin.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

And one notice about bad name of italian breed :
On bonitation at 31.3.2007 was delegate first Sona Bognarova. But one member of italian club visited Sona and shows her conditions of bonitation. Everything were OK, only by character test was dog always on leash together with owner. When Sona says, that she will see in any case dog how react without owner (not necessary with figurant), then italian club oficially canceled delegation for Sona and invite Jedlicka and Simackova. Its next reason, why czech and slovaks see italian breed bad. You put to dogs same bonitation code system, but your bonitation according not to bonitation in countries of origin.

this is the my last message about this subject, i will no longer write ANYTHING else about this matter, i promise.
Pavel
I am fed up of you speaking of "italian breed" in general!!!

PLEASE STOP THIS!!
Every time you speak in "general" you offend ME and MANY OTHERS LIKE ME.
I have personally never done anything against you.
So italian HONEST BREEDERS AND OWNERS should not accept your words.
I ask you very kindly and gently to avoid such generalization;
i am just one of many others who love the breed and are offended by your words.
you have the right to offend whoever you want...but you will be paid back the same way, don't forget.
I have made many kilometers and spent a lot of money and time JUST to see a special wolfdog (ex ali reolup or Agar reolup) or JUST to make a dogshow with a great judge (ex. Oscar dora or Sona Bognarova)...or just to see a dog show many kilometers from my home (poznan) so i personally take your words as an offence.
I invite all people writing on this site just to weigh their words...it's easy to write when you are in front of a keyboard and in front of a monitor....
Many check people tend to "generalize" when speaking about the breed.
I NEVER DO IT...There are some Czech breeders I know that I totally dislike but i would NEVER apply my personal feelings to ALL czech breeders and owners and all i ask is to give me the same respect I give you.
I respect and thank the person who gave birth to this fantastic breed, KAREL HARTL and only thanks to his intuition and courage can we enjoy the feeling of having such a wonderful dog...
I respect and thank those breeders/Judges like monika, Jindra, Sona, Oskar, etc. who have allowed us to have wolfdogs as we see them today, helping in selection and continuation of the breed as it is.
I respect and thank those owners/breeders like Margo and Przemek who give a certain modernity to our breed, making very brave combinations and pushing to the limits with special "matings" others would never try, helping the breed with new "mediatic" information that has never been available to simple owners in the past.
I respect and thank those owners/breeders like Saschia and Hanka who put honest love into the breed and give to others for free all information and advice which is really important for newcomers like I am.
I respect and thank those breeders like Sarka and Fabio who have reached such level of selection on csw after a lot of efforts and hard work and bringing our breed to excellence compared to other FCI breeds that has never been reached in the past.
I TRUST in the good will and I have faith that even some strange and absurd decisions taken by some of these people "could" be done for a good reason and i wait and see for the results but i am of course cautious about the results.
I have little experience compared to the mentioned people and I rely on them for the future of our breed.
I am nobody to defend our wonderful breed from those who I should instead thank for the actual level of wolfdog reached.

I am FED UP of people ONLY looking for an occasion to attack their enemy, to throw shit on other people's faces without any realistic reason but to show they are actors in a film which "maybe" is greater than themselves.
I would like to read proposals for future, not only criticism on things done by others....
Those who do not take action, cannot fail.
Good night
massimo

[Pavel]

Dear Massimo,
please, read my commetns good. I wrote, that most CsW breeders and owners in Italy are really seriously people, but bad name of italian breed makes a pair "puppy producers". But this people are very famous, traveling around Europe to shows and are very famous in countries of origin as well. I dont denounce all italian breed, but I only publish here, how is today picture about italian breed in czech and slovakian public. Nothing more. Please displace by arguments my statements, which I wrote above. If not arguments, then please dont close the eyes and see the truth.

[wilupi!]

massimo as you can have a trust???

[hanninadina]

Massimo worte:

"I respect and thank the person who gave birth to this fantastic breed, KAREL HARTL and only thanks to his intuition and courage can we enjoy the feeling of having such a wonderful dog...
I respect and thank those breeders/Judges like monika, Jindra, Sona, Oskar, etc. who have allowed us to have wolfdogs as we see them today, helping in selection and continuation of the breed as it is.
I respect and thank those owners/breeders like Margo and Przemek who give a certain modernity to our breed, making very brave combinations and pushing to the limits with special "matings" others would never try, helping the breed with new "mediatic" information that has never been available to simple owners in the past.
I respect and thank those owners/breeders like Saschia and Hanka who put honest love into the breed and give to others for free all information and advice which is really important for newcomers like I am."

Congratulations Massimo, I see it as you do!!!! It is a lot of work which had been done by the mentioned persons. And all did and do a lot for the csw. It is very easy to critizise other people. I only can say, do it better. And sorry to say Pavel, if we didn´t would have the italian breeders, the breed wouldn´t be so far at this point because the breeders in the origin countries are only a handful and only a handful puppies come every year on the market. And that is not enought to bring a new breed further on. Please watch how many puppies are born in the czech republik, slovakai and italy. And please do me a favour and get to know italian lines of csw. Then you will see that there are a lot more "dogs" than in the countries of origin! They are way behind 9th 10th generation to a wolf and not 5th or 6th. And you can laugh at but my experience is that these dogs are much more easier to handle and of course some of them look much more than a wolf! Sure, from my point of view it is a pity to raise up dogs only in kennels, not to socialize them on people and so on. But this is another point. But if this would be done, you get in italy in the moment the doggier dog.

And belive me or not Pavel, I have even experience with wolves and wolfdogs. I can make the difference between dog, wolfdog, wolves. The german hunting dogs "Deutscher Kurzhaar" is 500 generations behind the wolve. There you can see the real difference.

It depends on what you want, sure. But we are living in democratic countries and there is no "one" person who leads a dog breed!!! And it is not illegal or criminal to breed in wolves or wolfhybrids, sorry to say as a lawyer. It has nothing to do with criminal laws. It is only a thing you and a few others don´t like, but this is another thing. This is not your task, Pavel and this is not Margos and Przemeks task. It is very conservatic thinking what you are talking about. So if you think what is best for the breed of csw than please you can breed your dogs as you like. But time is going on and things are changing! If everyone would have been thinking like you, there would not be new breeds and of course there would not be csw!

I hate it when some people think that they are most intelligent people and that they only know what is right and what is wrong. And I am really wondering that you don´t respect that there are people who Massimo mentioned who have really more experience with the breed of csw. Think of the time you are involved in this dog breed. And think of how long the above mentioned persons concern for the breed. Think of how many puppies in all the years they "develop". And only why some persons think that they have to put their female every heat into mating in 6 month of time and get more and more puppies and litters, that doesn´t mean that this is good for the breed of csw. As a friend of animals I think, why they can not let the female dog be dog and not a breeding machine? Why mating them evey heat and not wait for the second heat? I don´t mean only the italian breeder. There are some others more. It is really awful. That has nothing to do with serious breed. Sorry to say. These people forget, that wolves become only one time in the year puppies. The females have enough time to get ready. But a female who gets every half a year puppies doesn´t have this time. It is a breeding machine. But why and what for? And taking males, which had mate a lot of females so that there is no need for the breed, is not to understand.

So, please go in your own house, look for the right. And if you have done this, you can come and try to change the csw world or to lead the csw world.

I can only shake my head.

Christian

[Pavel]

Hi Christian,
noboidy said here, that CZ or SK breed is the best and without problems. Please read my comments. I speak not about crossing wolwes and hybrids. You are right, its absolutelly legaly and I would like to support the people, who do it. But here we speaking not about hybrids, we have pure breed dogs and every breed have some rules. Maybe you are not inform, but its not legaly to crossing wolves to pure breed without special permision of breed club and mainly without any project and target this crossing.
Massimo speaks about e.g. Sona and Oskar - both are very strictly against the Mutara hybrids (not against the creatures, but against the oficially registration like a CsW) like whole slovakian club, which covered our race.
And about the amount of CsW in Italy - yes, you are right, there is today more dogs, then in CZ or SK. But see why as well. Mass production is not quality !!! Mass production dont make experience and dont cultivate the breed !!! Again - I dont speak about most italian breeders, but only about the pair of them, which producing puppies only and its doesnt matter, if parents have low AVK or not.
Christian, you can shake your head, you can doing everything, but please, cont put something to my mouth, what I dont said.

Pavel

[Hanka]

So, where is problem in italian club? Bad goverment? Change it. There are a lot of breeders, who want to do breeding GOOD.

[solowolf]

I have just read all the mail regarding breedings in Italy, it is very sad day for the breeed, while it is very important to stop such breedings it can be done firstly by getting all the facts, then to approach the person or persons responsable and if anything improper or illegal has occured the evidence needs sent to the clubs and FCI, if anything you know about this type of breeding that has taken place then once the person or persons has been dealt with by the clubs or FCI, then and only then should the information be made available and made to wolfdog.org menbers by private email only not on line for everyone to see, just for one minute everyone read the mails and pretend you are a dog lover looking at the CSW breed for the first time, READ THE MAILS... talk of cross breeding,, named breeders,,, dogs that have attacked owners,,, serious breeding faults,,ect ect,,, what a mess and all on line,, please remove this and all mails, no time for this site anymore p.winder and CSW club u.k signing off for good,,,,,,,

[fenris]

I do agree with Pacino. This discussion is most detrimental to the breed.

[fizban]

If the admins think it'd be better for this thread to be removed, feel free to do so. My original intent was to get impression on dogs looking suspicious, and then to get information on what would have been appropriate for me/us to do. I knew nothing about the international contacts, clubs and whatever so it would have been impossible to do so unless I posted publically.

I got those info, and I shared the verifiable information to the people who cared. It's not my intent to discredit anyone, obviously. BTW, my original thread title (or topic - subject) was "What kind of dog is this", I didn't mention any kennel name. However, people who mentioned kennel names did so with true and verifiable information as well - if they weren't true he/they would get sued in a matter of few hours, so what's wrong with that?

That said, I can avoid publishing any other verifiable information from now on, IMHO it's dumb to keep things secret, but who the hell cares after all. I'm sick of being threated as a troll.

"So long and thanks for all the fish"

[Wolfsirius]

pacino wrote;"for everyone to see, just for one minute everyone read the mails and pretend you are a dog lover looking at the CSW breed for the first time, READ THE MAILS... talk of cross breeding,, named breeders,,, dogs that have attacked owners,,, serious breeding faults,,ect ect,,, "

I think agressive Csv is not unheard. Breeders and owners SHOULD tell about the problems in breed as well. We have very special breed, but is not only beauty looking like a wolf. As breed had made there is used wolf and gsd and is clear without saying that these dogs have strong temperament and very high instincts.

UK is not only country where breed is "under control" by people out from breed, and Mutara is not our only problem, and maybe not biggest problem either. As far as i "know" Mutaras are all by people who have experience about the breed and some of them have experience about wolves as well. I think mutaras never offered to people "public" But as i wrote begin of topic, we have already csv mixes like tamaskan/husky/csv, and people who make ANY mixed puppies are not right for the purebreed dog, especially not for Csv or SWH. And as these people are not responsible, is clear that they sell puppies to similary, irresponsible people, and more mixes will come, and some day, these mixes can be back in our breed. And these mixes can, and will make troubles, sure.

Overproduction of puppies is fact today. How many breeder is ready or able to keep puppies as long as puppies have suitable owners? And if there are, what happened as puppies live in big pack, and then move to new home as a youngster? All CsV,s are not "homechanging" dogs and with older puppy can come big problems.

just a bit off topic; how many breeders you know that sell puppies to people who never met csv live? (even have possibility, as there is breed in same country)
For me our breed is more than few thousand euro's, and it should be so to everyone.
i believe that is very nice to breed dogs as living, but with this breed is almost impossible. These are not golden retrievers, or gsd;s which can live almost anywhere, with just anybody. These dogs need more. It never should be enough, that new puppyowner have "a big house" and want a dog looks like a wolf.
Even we have dogs not suitable enviroments as well.

And there is always at least one breeder who sell puppy, if somebody else dont. Is it really so difficult to ask from each others what kind of people these are, and why they are asking puppy from abroad? Maybe because on worstest case they have band to keep animals cause problems before? Many people are interested on our breed cause exterior, many adult dogs looking new home cause problems and owners get enough of activity.

I visit CZ almost every year to meet breeders/dogs and owners,
to see how breed is today, and i am very worried that there is puppies going to people who never saw breed alive, only saw nice fotos on internet and read how "wolfish" our breed is.
On worstest cases there is people who get puppy in 2 weeks from first contact to breeder, but never met dogs or breeder personally. What is easier? And there comes adult dogs looking new home.

We have "breedingmaterial" in Finland, we have many nice dogs, from different lines, but since -99 we had have only 3 litters, cause not enough suitable owners.

Wake up, breeders, we should be proud of our breed, stop massproduction, concentrate to ennoble breed and slowly grow on. If people really want wolfdog, they can waite puppy, if they can't they dont need.
Everyone of us can make puppies, but to BREED and keep dogs in right hands by responsible people should be target for everyone.

for me, fact is that we have more problems than Mutara.
Maybe every breeder should go to look itself from mirror and ask am i doing my best for the breed? Is very easy to show on finger others, and forget myself.

still worried about the breed;
-Suski

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

i agree You 10000%.
but, the puppiemils make producents wolfdog for $.
and this is very sad.
Passo del Lupo is not breeder he is producent, which have BIG problem with hes blood linies, and character (not all dogs, but ...)
longhairing, shy, nor good format, high, collor, and now....Mutara this is super for breed.
and was make in this case Italian wolfdog club-to hem this is legal or ilegal?
pleas i and moore people waithing from Italian club information about this.
and FCI know about this?

[fizban]

Originally Posted by wolfin

pleas i and moore people waithing from Italian club information about this. and FCI know about this?

Hello,

Someone member of the club (not of the committee.. a normal person, I don't know how to explain) reported that there's going to be a Club meeting on Apr 28 (not related to this case - it was a programmed meeting), and AFAIK someone will bring the attention on the mentioned case on that occasion. I think (or rather hope) this will result in a public statement, or someone will just give us a report on the answers.

We are all as well, and obviously, interested on what the club thinks and will say about this and looking forward to know.

AFAIK, FCI is still not informed about the "issue" (unless someone did and not told us). Someone is personally working on letting the slovakian and czech clubs to know the story.

[wolfin]

Andre thanks, and waithing for good rezults.