Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Dayen]

Those are very heavy accusations. Be carefull about what you are saying and also, please read something about genetics before you spread such gossip about any CSW.

If we are really talking about brown pigmentation (red puppy, brown nose):

* To have such a puppy born in a litter with parents with black pigmentation, both parents must have gene for a brown color/pigment. If such gene is possible for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we would have brown puppies quite often over the years!

* So, from a CSW statistic, you can NOT have puppy with brown pigmentation from a litter in which at least one parent is pure CSW!



PS: Don't you have a larger photo?

[Mikael]

If we are really talking about brown pigmentation (red puppy, brown nose):

* To have such a puppy born in a litter with parents with black pigmentation, both parents must have gene for a brown color/pigment. If such gene is possible for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we would have brown puppies quite often over the years!

* So, from a CSW statistic, you can NOT have puppy with brown pigmentation from a litter in which at least one parent is pure CSW!

Yes, I think this is the point of the question

Best regards / M

[elf]

Originally Posted by Dayen

Those are very heavy accusations.

Well, I did not write accusations but deductions, the facts are:

- Thalia x Sibir gave some red puppies (Saarloos alike)
- DNA tests tells Thalia x Sibir are the parents
- From what I know both parents have to be carriers, so finally hundred of dogs may be involved worldwide

[saschia]

The question of parentage seems to be very important now - it is possible to find out if Galiba really is father of Sibir, but even more important - and harder to find out - is whether parnts of Thalia are the ones that are declared. Thalia and Galiba should have the same father. And there are a lot of offspring of Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora. It is hard, but genetic tests should be able to at least show, if it is possible for two dogs to be half-siblings.

Either way, birth of such red pups from supposedly purebred mating is a grave matter and brings issues such as parentage testing to new levels of importance.

[Dayen]

Purely in theoretic part, since we never seen brown CSW before.
Carriers of brown color are quite easy to find by DNA test. Maybe it could help to consider this:

Brown dog (bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are born black pigmented and all are carriers of brown gene (Bb).

Black pigmented dog with brown gene (Bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are black pigmented, some puppies are carriers of brown gene (Bb), some not (BB).

Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

[saschia]

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

[Dayen]

Saschia, I don't know. This whole situation is weird.
I've never seen brown European Wolf, CSW or German Shepherd. That indicates CSWs are BB.

Maybe there is some exception for brown/red sable as for example I know the exception for two black&tans to sometimes have puppy with different colour. So I could be wrong.
But system really works so simple for solid brown colour/pigmentation, as far as I've seen with my other breed.
Maybe I'm doing too big jump from solid to sable colour, but I'm sure about solid color and pigmentation should go with it.

[jefta]

Originally Posted by saschia

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

This is so easy and universal for all dogs Test is avalible. I cant link here but for example in DDC VETERINARY test for one locus (we are intrested in one locus- "B") cost 58 $

[yukidomari]

Martiou, is the photo you posted a photo of the actual dogs in question, or just two red Saarloos to show the color?

[saschia]

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.

B Locus (DNA markers tested – S41C, P345Pel, Q331X)
Associated with the presence of chocolate (also commonly referred to as liver or brown). The bb genotype usually results in a chocolate coat phenotype and liver noses among yellow dogs.

How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

OK, I was mistaken about the funding, apparently.