Pacino's kennel
 

hi, now that the price war seems to be drying up !! you may be interested to know that after 5yrs & 7 mths work & effort by my wife mandy, myself & corrie keizer after tons of paperwork, hundreds of phone calls, endless red tape, & pleading with kennel club, lynx legends puppies are all now on the working & obedience register with the kennel club of great britian, the first step to get the breed reconised in uk, we need 10 czechs in uk to get on import register, then we will put the breed up to become fully reconised in uk, we have dogs that will be imported this year to make up the numbers, it has been long hard dtruggle but worth every day, corrie has give us support from day one, without her help there would be no czechs in uk, also many thanks to robb in hollan who bred lynx, so i think it is fair to say we have made a big effort for the breed, corrie & i promoted the first czech ever at crufts, we produced the first litter in uk, the strang thing is for all our effort & work, it did not even get a mention on wolfdog.org from all the czech owners & breeders on wolfdog.org we have only recieved two private email to congratulate us on our effort, a few words of support would have been nice now & then but not to worry, hopefully next year we will be the complete attension at discover dogs at crufts standing proude with our czechoslovakian wolfdogs. best regards paul,mandy & corrie.............

Pacino's kennel
 

You have all put in a lot of time and effort. The result is a very promising looking situation for us here now in the UK. We owe you a great deal, and your professionalism is apparent in the standard of the dogs and the service you have given us. I think it is what taking serious ownership of a very special breed of dog is all about, and we have plenty to look forward to, and to work towards in the future. I am very pleased that Hektor and I are on board, and we are looking forward to getting involved and showing a return of the comittment that you have shown to us.

This is an opportunity for us to make a great name for the CzW in the UK, and I am certain that with you pushing things forward, that is what will happen. In the coming months the UK owners, prospective owners and fans of the CzW and Sarloos will have their own points of contact, information exchange, and mutual support based here within the UK. I am sure that we can also rely on our friends in Europe and elsewhere to support us and help us by letting us have access to their considerable experience, but at the same time I hope that before long the UK owners will be adding valuable information to the knowlegde base themselves.

Thanks to you, your wife, Corrie and others, we now have a toe hold in the UK, and I am looking forward to helping you consolidate that position, and to get the recognition for these dogs that they deserve.

Paul, I think you are unfair to us. You know we put in the news section the info that you imported the first CzW to UK. Later we put the information about the first CzW at Cruft.
Some months ago we removed the news section and setup the forum instead of it so now everyone can put here the latest news unaided. And you used this option and informed us about the first litter :D

Don't take it personally - two emails are very nice number. Really. In the fact the Czech people are not so active on other versions of Wolfdog. There are even not so active on their own version. If you don't believe me - visit Czech forum. But the use other ways of comunnication and all good informed people already know about your litter and your work. Also Slovakian people keep fingers crossed for you and for everyone who is working for this breed.

Aw.. Paul, you should now you are worshipped. Or maybe thats just me. And I cant wait, this year I can drive and hopefully will get to discover dogs to meet the czechs next year woohoo! Its because of all your effort that my dreams become closer and closer. I swear even my parents are now supporting your work my parents now. We are all here to support you *group hugs*.

-Mosi

Hello Paul,

looking at the litter-advertisement of the kennel Shoshone I have two questions: What do the HD-Results mean? I never heard of a result like 4:5 and I don´t think it makes any sense to show it this kind on wolfdog.org.
And are you sure the Louba Tar ancestors are no mixes? Did you do any tests?

Regards Ina

hi Ina, the De louba tar comment made me and others laugh, joke with a jag, best check your dogs as well you never know where de louba tar pops up or that is, if it is de louba tar,,, i dont think you will be the one who decides on weather the hip scoring results from uk are o.k on wolfdog.org at least we send them in,,, anyone who has interest on how our hip scoring works can mail me private, we assure all on wolfdog.org we only breed from very low scores, unfortunately hip scoring does not detect dogs that carry the displasia gene, nore does it detect such factors as diet and over excercise in young dogs, all can lead to hip problems,, have a nice day,,,paul

Dear Paul,

I am very sure none of my dogs contains this blood and never will. And you yourself started a topic containing this problem so don´t blame me to take you serious.

That hip results don´t show the genes is nothing new but they give you the possibility to find out if there is a inherited problem if you look at them over generations.
What I really meant is that no one in Europe has the possibility to know anything about the hip results of your dogs because on the continent you use the A,B,C,D,E system. It would be of much greater use to translate the English results in this system on wolfdog.org what should be possible.

A little bit astonished
Ina

I hope so for you cause i remember you also thought your first litter would get pedigrees, but in the end they didn't , did they?!

Furthermore, i wonder, do you really think a picture is proof that there is no crossbreeding taking place?
call me stupid, but i much rather rely on dna testing! (which is very conclusive if ALL dogs are tested)

Paul, the question is that you have use Brix Bix de Louba Tar in your breeding, how do you know that he isn't a mix?
Have you do DNA tests in he before use?

About the hip degrees I find in OFFA site the differents hip registries used in some countries, that includes UK, but being this site international and CzW a FCI breed is better change the UK registries for FCI, that means A1 or A2 as all breeders and owners do.

Lets see...
If is for we be assured by the fotos so, this low quality photo of Brix bix De Louba Tar seems that maybe he have long ears insert at side of the head, with a curious head format, maybe because the position of this photo his body seems more a potatoe with 4 toothpick... :jumpie :p Its really difficult made a basic evaluation of one dog with good and some photos, its simply impossible with medium/bads and only one, as we can never use photos as assurance because nobody garantee that the dog at photo is really the same dog. :twisted:

Too as Kane, a CzW (??) who is father of a Utonagan litter mix done in UK and sold as "czech wolfdogs" by this "breeder"?
Won't that be a problem for you and for the breed in Uk? :roll:

Greetings

Paula

Paul, I had a look at your website. If I´m right Defra still refuses the CzW to be removed from the "dangerous wild animal act".

So you are breeding dogs who have to be kept in the U.K. as dangerous wild animals?

I couldn´t find photos of your CzW and pups inside your home. Do you only keep them outside?

Princesse is the mother of the third litter in the U.K.? A CzW who unfortunately could not get much socialisation when she was a pup because she always had to be hidden from Defra?

And last but not least:

you keep a timberwolf among your CzW???

Might be better to give the answers myself - with your words "funny old place the U.K."

Angelika

Paul, it seems that you have a changeable point of view when it becomes the breed Louba Tar. First you start a smear campain against the breeder Louba Tar, and although your pictures showed skinny dogs in a mudpool, they are not abused and beaten, so what was all your hysteria about?! There is much worse and really horrifiying animal suffering to make a stand for.

And now you openly make fun of someone who has a ligitimate question about the Louba Tar breed. There ARE serious rumours about mixes between Saarloos and CsW at Louba Tar, and you HAVE a descendent from Louba Tar with whom you breed, so maybe there is some risk with that, because in the worst case your dog could contain some Saarloos blood. You can't denie that. You talk like you are the CsW-Einstein here, but you have a funny way of showing it: using photos as proof for the breeding :shock:, your strange reaction to a normal question about your HD-results, breeding a not official recognized breed (so there is no control on keeping a high breeding standard of the CsW, like there is in the rest of western europe) ... yes, I definitely agree with Angelika!

greetings Monique

yes your corect we had our first litter registered then they removed them , if all dogs were tested it would be great how many dogs listed on this forum are dna tested ? i breed my dogs from european bred dogs, the sires are all in europe, so i thought this would not be problem, you can view my pedigreees on line on wolfdog.org if there is anything incorrect please contact me, we do have unregistered pups and we still refuse to get licence for the dogs,

hi yes are dogs are classified as dangerous wild animals and defra still refuse to remove them,, yes we are breeding dogs in uk classed as DWA , you can not find photos of my dogs in my home as they live in large pens outside, there excercise area is 3 acres in size, amazing how can you tell princess did not get socialised?? infact not one dog is hidden from defra, are dogs are in public all the time, openly shoen on web sites, very well socialised dogs, even been at crufts itself, and we have not complied with defra, we do not have there licence, and we are prepared to go to jail if nessesary to prove our point, are dogs live a great life and travel freely, my bitch went to holland to be mated last year, and came back to u.k,, no i keep a czech male with my timberwolf, i can run them all as a pack if i wish to do so, i used the czechs to train the wolf,, excellent,, regards paul

hi brix was bred from a dog called Donis bonus and bitch called jolly seda eminence, both dog and bitch come from reputable breeders so if you think he looks like potatoe maybe you best mail them with your comments not me, now we can ask all on wolfdog.org what percentage of all dogs on web site have dna screening done, and as you hope to own one in the future will you insist on dna tested dog before importing? you may find it very hard to get dog... its true you cant tell if dog in photo is really that dog, unless of coarse you know that dog, same as you cant tell if father on pedigree is infact the father, dna test needed,,, so you will have some problems soon yourself, there is one litter of wolfdogs on this web site born in one country and registered in another, so they have fraudulent pedigrees, even worse some oof the litter have been used in breeding,,, i have told wolfdog.org but nothing has been sent to me for explation of my letter, you also need to look at dogs registered by FCI as czech wolfdogs that in no way met breed standards, these are numerous in france and are being bred into good lines by other breeders, so there is a lot you need to look for when buying a dog, we have no problems for our breedings in uk all dogs are pure czechs youu can only breed through the club,, anything you see advertised as czechs or wolfdogs or wolf crosses are nothing to do with our club and do not appear on our records, please dont be over concerned on our breeding in uk we hope you get a czech soon, we still fight for recognition of this breed and even after 6 yrs we still fight and still have no defra licence, if you get dedicated people like our club to help you will have good friends, they ALL risk going to Jail for there dogs.

hi quiche it seems that lots of people here question my breeding in u.k although my dogs are pure bred, as many mention here its best you seek dog in europe as they are all dna tested, then you will be sure, also we do not have registrations by uk kennel club, so as you can see by other posts most dont want us to breed here in uk. but you are still very welcome to come see our dogs, then you can judge for yourself, you will see my last litter now 14 mths old come up to breed standard a lot more than some dogs on this site, they also have better coats ,bone,and are very open dogs showing no shyness at all, we done research before choosing our stud dog from holland, and we bred back to regain the more wolf type looking dogs, its not always good to go forward, you may loose more than you gain, i have bred dogs for over 34 yrs, produced the top winning akita in america 2007 and in australia 2006-07, have studied genetics and health defects in animals worked and lived with wolves for many years, and have forgotten more about dogs than some people on here know about them, but they are all intitled to there say, i have looked at lots of pictures on this site from a lot of different countries and i can see distinct differences in appearence, hight,coat,colour and temperament in this breed, and i now know of one dwarf born. by the way the dwarf is a registered czech wolfdog with the FCI,,,and is on this site,, regards paul

HI i have just talked to club members and we have decided as we dont have pedigree dogs, we may even have cross breeds, and we have ti listen to so called experts like you, we now ask the web master to please REMOVE ALL OUR DOGS AND LINKS FROM WOLLFDOG.ORG ALL OUR PEDIGREES TO BE REMOVED AND ALL OWNERS DETAILS REMOVED AS SOON AS POSSABLE. we will keep in contact with our many friends and breeders in europe by private mail, i will also come back to forum and report all that happens in court with de louba tar kennels, mr p winder czechoslovakian wolfdog club u.k..........

Paul, you seems to have misunderstood Paola's point. I understood (and so did others) that the matching from which Brix was born took place at de Louba Tar, and YOU yourself claimed earlier that matchings there were not reliable...

Then how can you be sure that Brix was born from the parents indicated in the papers if, accordintg to your earlier statements, breeding at de LT was lousy? Take no offence, I'm just asking in an attempt to find any logic in all that.

Well, that´s at least three of us having the same questions you still didn´t answer.

Well, :ehmmm I've recieved the answer on PM. Thanks, Paul.

wow, could you get of your high horse and find the time to answer my question? You so eloquently have written a reply but failed to answer.

Or do you really believe with 34 yrs of experience in breeding you can proof with a picture of a suposed mating that you have a purebred litter.:roll:

DNA testing is not expensive, with the SWD in Germany all dogs will be tested in the future, non german breeders are already cooperating, and in Holland it is getting more regular as well, though not with cooperation fro the RvB and mentioning of tests on pedigrees like in germany
I remember reading on the kennelclub website that they do these test as well. If you do care for maintaining and safeguarding a breed, dna testing is a much more logical step than taking pictures, and i hope more CWD owners will start doing dna test on all litters as well! (and not abuse the rather childlike excuse that when others don't do it they don't feel the need as well)

i know when and where the parents of all my dogs where bred why would i need dna test, i have proof of brix biss de louba tars breeding, i trust the person who was present and was witness, all our dogs are health checked, if we thought that the dogs we got from europe were not correct we wouldnt have bought them, all our dogs originated from europe, you must now ask corrie keizer, rob de jagger ,koos and letty de graff and Annie montines for you are asking me are there lines correct,, the litter i bred from koos and letys stud dog give me an excellent litter and i have no need to question there breedings or there lines, so why have you?? nor have i any need to question the von rijnecker hof lines, so what is wrong with these lines i need to know? also if there is anything wrong with the lines from Annie montines? all our stock came from europe if you know of a problem please contact the breeders youself, as i said before we have no problems in u.k. with our breedings,,,and i would not insult any friends in europe to send proof of there breeding via dna to me, i trust these breeders, do you really think that koos and lety would have let me use there stud dog had they not known my bitch was correct? they are very respectable breeders and good friends, and i trust them 100%,,, i am sorry i can not answer your questions on my breedings, the breeders in europe who i get my dogs from you must mail them and ask for dna test, as for me i am happy and trust them, i know the parents of brix but to keep you happy please contact corrie keizer for dna test WE WILL PAY FOR ALL VET BILLS, what more can we do to help you? send the vet bill to
mr r winder cwcuk
station farm
station road
kent
tn262dg
england..
we at the czechoslovakian wolfdog club uk are very greatful for people like you who are concerned with dogs we have bought and used from europe and now we wait in anticapation on the dna results for brix bis de louba tar
the club will also pay for any other dna test you wish done on any of our dogs from europe or dogs we have used, if the money is required up front please send amount and details and we will do immediate transfer, thank you regards mr r winder on behalf of the CWC u.k

hi, as you can see we have asked nanouk to contact the breeders of our founder stock and stud dogs to ask for dna tests, our club will pay for all vet bills, what more can we do to help, we trust the people in europe, who bred our dogs, we trust the people whos stud dogs we use, we used one dog who carried the de louba tar affix but is bred from dogs not of de louba tar lines, we trust the person present at matting which produced brix, we health test all our dogs, we now have premission from local councils to keep our dogs with no licence ////,, that has taken 6 yrs, we keep record of all breedings so when breed gets recognition we can have kc pedigrees, we keep photos of matings and for the benifit of NANOUK we dna all dogs,, just Nanouk never asked , but we dont need to tell all we do, when my bitch was mated in Holland Koos filled in all the proper forms and registered the mating even though the pups where born in uk. it was still done correct, for the benifit of Nanouk tomorrow i will put copy of uk kennel club registration for my first litter, it was not the clubs fault our dogs where removed as many keep reminding us about in there arrogant mails, sad some people still think its funny,,,,, so now our club give Nanouk the oppertunity to get dna tests on all dogs we bought from and used from europe, our club pays for it all, then no one has any need to question our dogs, further more any time we decide to get or use dog from europe we will of coarse give Nanouk oppertunity to get dna for us and again we pay for all, what more can our club do to help, best regards paul

hi i know where brix came from and i know he is from the dog and bitch on his pedigree, but to keep you and others happy we ask nanouk to get dna test on brix who is at de louba tar kennels our club will pay for all, we know what went on at the de louba tar kennels, hence i used brix,,, we await results, paul

Hi Paul,

Do you test your breeding dogs for HD?
I couln'd find any HD results here on wolfdog.org which got me a little bit curious.

The reason why i'm asking is that my dog Shadow has HD-D rating which is not that great as you can imagine, and when i look at his breeding lines i see the name Brix Bis de Louba Tar come popping up.

well, i am flattered that you use and remeber my name!
But i don't know why I should arrange dna testings?

I asked a simple q following on one of your statements.. (as a remimder, this one: It is good to know you are doing dna testing. puzzles my why you had to make such a fuss around it, or was that all a scheme just to get your shot at getting back at a closed topic!
If you want dna testing done on dogs, you can if you have doubts, go the official way by contacting the kennelclub, which you , with all your experience should have known, and not via a privat person like myself, who is not even involved in breedclubs or anything!

Furthermore, i don't see the need of mentioning other breeders,when a q is directed to you, i did not insinuate anything, certainly did not judge your breeding, cause i have never been at your kennels or have seen your dogs other than in pictures and stoeries deliverd by others and certainly, unlike some others, won't spread unbased rumours !! What i personally do frown apon is breeding dogs without official FCI papers, same as the promise that those dogs will one day will be registered.. But that is MHO

Well that at least is an answer. Paul you yourself set doubts about Louba Tar breeding in this forum. You yourself suggested that Cory Keizer is not a trustworthy person. You can´t expect people to believe you on one side and don´t ask for your own Louba Tar used in breeding. There is absolutely no reason to feel insulted.

Ina

hi all our breeding dogs are tested for h/d ,they have eye test Every year is required in uk, we hip score at 2yrs of age, the dog is mature by then, some people hip score younger but our club decided 1 yr or 18 mths is not old enough, all test results can be sent if required, paul

people adding comments to this thread also have no h/d test results on wolfdog.org, all breeding dogs in u.k are h/d and eye tested. as are the stud dogs we use in europe.. paul

how can a dog in uk have FCI papers?? as you stated we should do things as in europe, the dog brix bis de louba tar is in europe as are his parents, so our club asked you to help, as you told us that our h/d test results dont mean anything in europe, would are dna tests? i dont agree with people cross breeding saarloos but they do and the offspring have FCI PAPERWORK, so its not hard to get things past breed clubs or Fci in europe,,

Amazing reaction, Paul. I used nothing else but your own words: "I can assure you all my Czech puppies in UK are very safe and well out of harms the sas couldn´t find them.....as for unexpected surprises.....for fear of persecution from Defra the puppies have all been moved to secret locations....." (see www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=690 ).

Lost their mother too soon, hidden from Defra - proper socialisation of puppies indeed.

It´s not my fault when you forget your own words. - For me: end of discussion.

Angelika

looks like you missed info at some stage, this was a while ago, czechoslovakian wollfdogs have been excepted by local councils in u.k. for many months nows, you look after your dogs in Germany and leave the uk dogs to our club, funny all the arogant mails arrive from Germany, thank god its end of discussion, we get all this for what, because we wanted wolfdogs in u.k, they are here and here to stay with or without any help from you or people like you, END

hi i think you have been in hibernation for a while, we made it public 9 mths ago that local councils had excepted the cws in u.k, the mail you are talking about was in 2004, its 2007 HELLO any body there? Lynx Legend there mother was killed in tragic accident but thanks for bringing it up again, but what else would one expect from you, you have two dogs and know it all, here endeth the lesson MANDY Winder, very pis..off

Looks like the Winder family think that they and their friends in Europe are the only ones who know what is right voor the TSW!!??

Very arrogant people in my opinion:roll:

About being on a high horse, I don't think there are horses that big :)

Regards,

Bert

mr van straten you are a friend of a good friend of mine so i will not write the reply your mail merits, you are as everyone entitled to your opinion, you can say as you like to me its not a problem, but my family is a different matter.

You should see the PMs some people here recieved just for asking normal questions :evil: .
Wasted time anyway...

Ina

Pacino's Kennel
 

hi i have been reading these posts, we kept three of our pups from last litter two bitchs and one dog, of coarse czechoslovakian wolfdogs are little terrors thats what makes them more fun than normal type dogs, i think a lot of problems are comming from owners, possibly not enough time for pup or pups, my husband spends so many hours with the pups, he even sleeps with them a few nights when they are young, he plays as they like it very ruff,, he will spend time with all the pups playing then after few hours they will calm down, this is when he will spend about 10 minutes with each pup training them, one at a time, pups together are always up to mischief, its there nature, its the fun of owning wolfdogs, if you can not cope inform breeder its there responsability for the welfare of there pups, so Malgor as it is obvious you can not cope with the pups i suggest you return them to breeder before these pups are beyond training, forget about yourself and wanting to own a wolfdog if you think anything about the dogs do them a favour they have a life to live as well as you but they need help quickly, this is why we have only bred 2 litters in 6 yrs, its hard to get the correct type of people for this breed, often people will tell you all you want to hear as they have read up a bit on this breed, but lots of people tell porkies to get a pup.we have owned big dogs, had difficult breeds,,, no these are czechoslovakian wolfdogs and are completely different , and are the best breed of dog we have ever owned, mother nature herself with a bit of dog in there,,,,,, please contact us at [email protected] we will give you help and advice but you must at all times be completely honest with any questions we ask , my husband is due home on friday please contact him, regards mrs m winder

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf (Bericht 126094) so Malgor as it is obvious you can not cope with the pups i suggest you return them to breeder before these pups are beyond training,

Hmm... That's rather presumptuous of you, is it not? Actually, I have a fair bit of experience with dogs, large and small, and I was simply pointing out that people (including previous posters) were not exaggerating the difficulties of bringing up these dogs. Yes, I *am* having problems with them, and they *are* turning all my expectations of training upside down - but to say that it is "obvious you can not cope" is (to be polite about it) presumptuous and arrogant. I am coping fine, thank you very much.

You know, I am repeatedly amazed on this forum that people who shout so loud about wanting to advance the breed (as all owners should), are so keen to attack newcomers - especially if those newcomers need some help. I simply wanted to know what worked for other people, to see if some of the answers could make life easier for me and my pups, and help the original poster - but I guess that was too much to ask. I guess the elitist csv 'experts' don't want anyone else to have one, since the general advice seems to be 'take them back, you can't handle them!'

Why, also, are you, Mrs Winder, so quick to assume that I am selfish?

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf (Bericht 126094) forget about yourself and wanting to own a wolfdog if you think anything about the dogs do them a favour they have a life to live as well as you but they need help quickly

Perhaps you are afflicted by feelings of superiority, but I honestly wanted to get CSV's to help the breed grow in this country, and hopefully get them recognised by the KC. My, my, how selfish of me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by solowolf (Bericht 126094) often people will tell you all you want to hear as they have read up a bit on this breed, but lots of people tell porkies to get a pup

Actually, no, I don't think I will. I have, in fact, already spoken to your husband, and it was he who directed me to the breeder - a fact which I appreciate. However, after speaking to him before, I was struck that he often puts himself across very poorly on forums, when in fact he is a very knowledgeable and pleasant chap on the phone. That said, having now been the focus of one 'solowolf's posts, I doubt I will deal with either of you again. Respect is hard to gain, but very easy to lose - and implying that I am a liar is a quick and easy way to do it. On that note, it is worth mentioning that it is the breeders responsibility to vet potential owners of their puppies.

For those who may be interested, our two puppies are now doing fairly well, and have started to settle in a bit better to training - though the dog is still a little on the dense side :)

Neesk, if you are still about (and repeated calls to give up haven't forced you to do so), I hope you are doing well with your pups. Feel free to PM or mail me, if you want, and I can tell you more about how I am coping with my 2+ a toddler.

-Malgor

you are very witty, lets just see how you cope, remember we and others have seen these dogs put to sleep because they did not get correct upbringing, you will learn more when these pups start to mature and loose respect, you mail worries a lot of people who are concerned for your dogs, people that have seen the results and dogs having to be destroyed. these are not ordinary dogs and dont ever think you can treat them as such you will loose, i think Andre wants to speak to you urgent why do you not answer the phone to her ?.m.winder

uk pups back with breeder
 

hi i have just returned from holland last night i read the post by Malgor,,, just to let you all know, people from the club drove 900kl last night and picked the pups up, so they are now back with the breeder, we can all make mistakes homing pups but just to let you know in uk, we put it correct as soon as we learn about it, Andre is a very reasponsable breeder and has now got pups back, they have been vet checked this morning and are fine, the injuries Malgor talked about when he got the pups must have healed up super fast as no sign of lump on nose or lip were evident at vet check, as i said none of us are perfect we do on occasions make mistakes and Andre and the club have learnt from this one, but we did correct it very quickly, thank you for all your concern about the puppies regards mr r winder.
have to log in on my wifes pass as mine is not working yet again LOL ...

You correct mistakes quickly, huh? Perhaps you should check your facts. The simple *fact* here is that My wife and I were the victims of identity theft, and have had our lives savings wiped out - including the money which was supposed to be transfering to Andre to pay for the pups.

After two days of calls back and forward between myself and Andre (yes, those calls your wife mentioned that I, apparently, "would not answer"), we both agreed that the pups should go back to her to be rehomed elsewhere, as it could take up to 3 months before I know how much (if any) of my savings I will get back, and I could not reasonably expect Andre to wait that long. There was no sense in us both being out of pocket over this. This was not the ideal course for anyone involved, as our (Andre's and my) primary concern was always how the pups would take having to travel again - but the fact was that Andre needs to pay her bills too, so *I* chose to return the pups.

Some of the people on this site sicken me. You know, Andre said to me last night that she hoped that people on this forum, and the whole unfortunate situation with the pups, would not put me off wolfdogs - and I said that, no, it wouldn't. But I sure as hell won't stick around here for long if pratts like the Winders are going to drag my personal life in to it - and I sure as hell won't be buying wolfdogs again in the uk, as dealing (in some fashion at least) with Mr and Mrs Self-importants imaginary 'club' is relatively unavoidable.

I have to say that I wish things could have gone differently between Andre and I, but obviously she has to pay her bills, just like anyone else, and has been very sympathetic and helpful through all of this. The Winders, however, have not even been involved in any of this, and still choose to show everyone how 'clever' they are, and how good their 'club' is at sorting out 'problem owners'. [censured]

I really wish I did not have to drag my personal life out in public, but I will not accept someone implying that I was a bad owner - [censured]

As for the injuries - I am amazed that the dogs can be vet checked already, given that they only left here at 10:50 pm last night, headed for leicester - so I would be surprised if they are even back with Andre yet, never mind a vet. Also, if they really were vet checked, then I would check the vet's qualifications, as the sore in the dogs mouth is hard to miss, if you actually open his mouth. The lump on the bitches nose was pretty much gone when she left here (though the scratch had still not completely healed), but that is the point of medication! It is supposed to heal! If you are still in doubt, you may wish to ask the 'vet' to download this high-resolution image which shows the scratch and lump quite clearly http://www.aois.co.uk/IMG_2296.JPG , or this one http://www.aois.co.uk/IMG_2295.JPG, which shows a nice profile of the bitches nose (bottom, in the red collar), clearly showing the lump - I have others, if you need them, though sadly none of the dogs lip.

Thank you to those people have managed to be polite and helpful on this forum, but I honestly don't know why you bother - it seems obvious to me that the actions of those who want to make you all look like elitist, selfish morons are only going to make you look bad too.

-Malgor

glad shes got the pups back, they seemed freindly and healthy when i picked mine up, which i must say is great, no diaher or any uther problems, shes freindly and not shy at all, she eats properly and goes to the toilet outside already, i have a doughter of five and she loves the pup and is already walkin her. yes the pup jumps up but at the end of the day she is a pup, but she aint that bad at that eather. i couldnt of wished for a better pup.. thanks to paul and his wife for all the help and to andre for the pup, couldnt of met nicer or more helpfull people.....

For those who may be interested, I just got off the phone to Andre, and the puppies are now back with her, having travelled very well. Curiously, she tells me that the pups got back to her at 10am this morning - which really makes me wonder how Paul could think that they were back and already vet checked at 8:50am?

So, please be aware, anyone who deals with Paul or Mandy Winder in future, that they are prone to... how should I put it... bending the truth, to make themselves look important.

In my book, there is nothing worse than someone who will use another's tragedy to further their own ends.

Hi Paul,

I'm curious too. What's happening?
Please let us know. Your website seem to have disappeared.

Michael

http://ukwolfdogs.com/17.html?frm_da...a1_type=large#
This is a photo of your homepage, put there on the 6/26/08.
In January you gave statements here calling yourself a CSW-breeder.
and that was a statement of your wife written on the 12th of March:




http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif Pacino's Kennel
hi i have been reading these posts, we kept three of our pups from last litter two bitchs and one dog, of coarse czechoslovakian wolfdogs are little terrors thats what makes them more fun than normal type dogs, i think a lot of problems are comming from owners, possibly not enough time for pup or pups, my husband spends so many hours with the pups, he even sleeps with them a few nights when they are young, he plays as they like it very ruff,, he will spend time with all the pups playing then after few hours they will calm down, this is when he will spend about 10 minutes with each pup training them, one at a time, pups together are always up to mischief, its there nature, its the fun of owning wolfdogs, if you can not cope inform breeder its there responsability for the welfare of there pups, so Malgor as it is obvious you can not cope with the pups i suggest you return them to breeder before these pups are beyond training, forget about yourself and wanting to own a wolfdog if you think anything about the dogs do them a favour they have a life to live as well as you but they need help quickly, this is why we have only bred 2 litters in 6 yrs, its hard to get the correct type of people for this breed, often people will tell you all you want to hear as they have read up a bit on this breed, but lots of people tell porkies to get a pup.we have owned big dogs, had difficult breeds,,, no these are czechoslovakian wolfdogs and are completely different , and are the best breed of dog we have ever owned, mother nature herself with a bit of dog in there,,,,,, please contact us at [email protected] we will give you help and advice but you must at all times be completely honest with any questions we ask , my husband is due home on friday please contact him, regards mrs m winder
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...er_offline.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/buttons/report.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...iquote_off.gif http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...quickreply.gif

Somehow your answer doesn´t fit your former statements and your homepage that can be found as a link under wolfhybrids.

Ina

Mr. Winder looking at your own homepage you obviously bred hybrids, no matter where you sold them. And you yourself put the pictures under the title "our last litter" on your own homepage.
And the fact that the nice German guy now did remove all photos he got on his homepage doesn´t change the facts he himself showed before you managed to contact him. We have downloads from everything.

So even if it took you four visits here and several days for a strange answer I don´t believe you, no matter how impolite your answers are.
You did a very bad job Mr. Winder.

Ina

now whos changing there tune, you state i bred the pup now in germany, i say i did not, now you say i breed wolf hybrids, no the correct word is wolfdogs , have i ever said that i dont breed wolfdog of different percentages NO i havnt, but if i breed wolfdogs of whatever percentage one thing i do not do IS SELL OR REGISTER THEM AS CSW AS YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE OUT, what i breed is none of your business, people are changing in europe to different wolfdogs any idea why, one big reason is all the new health problems now in the CSW and Saarloos , you and everyone have seen and read the topics on this site regarding health issues, dont you all think it strange that this started occuring about the same time as the saarloos were having health issues, all the health issues are now similar in the breeds and as the csw is much younger breed it has caught up very quickly with the saarloos in health issues, now take some realy good advice sort your own house out first, do you know the name of any csw dwarf pups born? well there is on registered and is on this database and has pedigree, xcenater arnie, from chrop z kaldenska zar father, csw cross saarloos, then back to csw and registered, i am putting all my info on my web site this weekend as the dutch kennel club are draging there heels, dna tests are positive and are with dutch kennel club, so certain lines from csw and saarloos are mixed and there are health problems,,

I know you changed names, is that due to personality disorder, cause before as Pacino you stated above?

Apart from you not being able to understand what I wrote I guess by purpuose.
Do you really think anybody here is stupid enough to believe that anybody is keeping and breeding Hybrids because of the CSW health problems?
- Apart from you of course:roll:.

Ina

"what i breed is none of your business" is that going to be the name of your new club..'None of you business wolfdog club' ?
or is still the same one you claimed to have had before..

I must say that for someone who also claimed to only want the best for the recognized wolfdog breeds.. you sure are singing another tune now..
"i breed wolfdogs of whatever percentage"
Your your credibility is just about zero.. Am looking forward to seeing just what you put up on your website Friday.. or will you come up with some other accuse ?

bengan

Czw is having problems as any other breed, exactly for CzW be a new breed we not know all illness that can appear and are tipical, it's a question of time for this problems start to appear, principally when we have some uninformed so called breeders that make completly nonsense inbreedings.
A well informed person will minimally study the breed standard for be able to recognize a untipical CzW, a good breeder will know what line are safe and pure to work and what maybe isn't pure... But we ever will find uninformed people that want a dog for impulse, as comercial breeders that wants try making money solding puppies, these really are people on risky line to take hybrids and mix as CzW because are unable to recognize a tipical dog, as not have knowledge about the lines.

And because that maybe CzW and Saarloos stop being easy solding as before, and that's why you change your talk about breeding and conservation.
Congratulations you make all people of idiot that have at least a little believing that you're a serious breeder in your country that're doing a hard work for breed by sometime.


I only hope not find in this topic you writing that you're crossing CzW with TIMBER wolf hybrid because health problems in the breed.
This is a nonsense.

Anthony, as Paula already said, these "producer" always argue for health-problems :evil:

czech pupps or mix? :twisted: (sorry others for OT)

hi Daiva, you knew this was coming or you would not have written a slanderous remark about my kennels would you ,you done this knowing i would reply so you and your comrads could take the piss out of me online again, now i have owned czech wolfdogs for nearly 9 yrs, i have bred 2 litters, i used two bitchs and used two different stud dogs, you however have breed 3 litters all from the one bitch and you bred the same bitch 3 years in a row????? poor animal, call yourself a breeder? in uk we call it puppy farming, you by doing this have done nothing at all to help the bred, people recently in posts have talked about breeders useing the same stud dog, you are doing the exact same only with the same bitch, you also breed P5 to P3 bitch so what was this all about? was P5 the best you could use? i think not,,,, the bonitations are to help better the breed by useing the best dogs and bitchs, obviously there was more to breeding an F5 to an F3 than mets the eye or you would have used a P1 ??/ if you think you are a breeder or lover of this breed then sit back look at what you are doing and THINK AGAIN,,,, no clever answers on this one and nowhere to hide its all logged into the data base what you breed. before you come back i bred a cwd to a wolf this is my private breeding programe with friends in USA and Europe, but this year i bred Atlas my male cwd with Carpathian wolf again for my personal programe, which has nothing to do with anyone only myself and my friends, i bred my cwd to the wolf not to other breeds of dogs and i do not as some idiots on this site try and say register the pups, with breedings like yours soon a carpathian wolf will be needed to save this breed, i will not go into your breeding and bonitation results i have said enough for now, im sure your face is now same colour as your hair, AND YOU ARE MODERATOR ON THIS SITE,,,,, LOL,,,,pacino

:lol: oh please forgive me

mea culpa mea optima culpa, tomoorow I call to me friend zoo and make me personel wolf x CSW linie. And be like great breeder from UK, who not very know who he see in hes and others dogs pedigree.

thanks for lession about breeding :) and thanks for compliment ,and me very like me red hair :rock_3

lady you need big lesson on breeding and bigger one on abusing a cwd bitch.make all your jokes but it wont cover up your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge of dog breeding ,your so called love of the cwd breed , people like you are destroying the breed by the day, you make a beautiful cwd bitch into puppy machine you are a disgrace to this bred, how are you a moderator ? no answer as to why you abuse your bitch? no answer to why you used P5 dog on P3 bitch,, MONEY what other laim excuse do you possably have. not for the good of the breed thats for sure. I can see you have good breeding progame you want to be first to produce a P9 and of coarse all bred from the one poor bitch........... now go hang your head in shame,,,

always an idiot to mess up the posts, and a puppy farmer at that

Oh, yes, we have some wise breeders just like you, pacino, here in Lithuania. In almost every second vilage lives a hunter, who knows best about cinology, so he gives porridge for his dogs to eat, keeps them on a chain and breedhis laikas with wolves. All of these uneducated rustics heve there own lineages, just like you do. Oh, they also believe that it is better for female to have one litter in her life than to be bred every year. And if you tell them you mated your champion bitch with a champion stud, they will really believe, you will have a champion litter :lol: Nice, pacino...

Wolfin, did you pay him for advertising your kennel? This is not very fair :twisted:

my dogs eat only the best and never on chain they have 2 acres excercise area on my farm, what i breed with wollf is my buisness, as for champion i dont own one,showing dogs is for pagent people, the show people breed for looks and end up corrupting the breed by using inferior dogs that may look nice but lack in many of the original charicteristics of the true breed, i believe in breeding a bitch twice in her life time, with minimum of 1 year for rest between litters, if you or your friend knew anything about breeding as you obviously dont then you would know that breeding a bitch to this extent only leads to inferior pups from the later litters, a bitch needs time to recover and build up all her body resorceses to ensure a healthy litter, one thing is for sure I DO NOT ABUSE MY DOGS IN IRREGULAR OVER BREEDINGS , whats not fair? wolfin made sarcastic remark on post where people are trying to give advice to people from Australia on importing dogs, if she wants to have a go at me online instead of sending private mail, them i look up her track record and hit back, im glad she did it for now all good breeders know of what she does with her cwd bitch, abuses the bitch to produce as many pups for sale as possable, so now to you whats your problem? or are you just her only friend with a tongue .i dont think many people will want to speak up on her behalf with the breeding practice she has with her cwd. This bitch has been abused enough let her rest and enjoy the rest of her life........

Paul,

I do understand that showing dogs in countries (such as my own) where judges haven't even heard of the breed, let alone know how to judge one is for fun (and hopefully to give a judge a new experience, and educate spectators), and really not of any value. I also understand that in some countries (such as my own) bonitations are currently not practical. But, I think to have dogs with exteriors that meet the standard is important, since many of these features served a big purpose in the breed as a working breed. Obviously, the exterior of the dog is not the only important factor to consider by any means. I am curious - what are your criteria for breeding a dog? In what instances would you refrain from breeding a dog?

Take good care,
Marcy

hi i would love to answer your question but as you know people on this site take the p..s out of people from uk, but i can tell you i have bred dogs for nearly 30yrs and unlike your friend wolfin i do know what i am doing and i do not abuse my animals by useing them as puppy machines, you will also notice that this web site has removed the uk from the breeders listings and its two breeders, it means that members of general public can not see our dogs or know that there are breeders in the uk, real nice people who do the web site, they havent even the balls to send us reason for the uk breeders being removed. greetings from the uk